Talk:Flurry
Worth making a note that 0.75 * 1.33 = 1? Meaning that all else being equal, engaging this skill should have no net effect on damage/second. :Easy way to test it: get 2 ele/war with identical +15 always/-5 en swords, 12 swordsmanship, +health armor, and just slug it out 1 with flurry 1 without. If health at the end is significantly different, then it approximates the effect of flurry - either no change, reduced overall damage, or increased overall damage with flurry up. Ninja Quail 23 July 2006 ::You would still have the damage range of the weapon. need to use a candy cane or other fixed damage wep.--Coloneh RIP 18:13, 24 November 2006 (CST) 33% faster attack speed means 4 attacks instead of 3, 33% more attacks in the same time; 4 seconds with axe/sword and 5,25 seconds with a hammer. *without Flurry: 3 attacks in 4 seconds deal 3*40=120 damage, you gain 3 strikes of adrenaline. *with Flurry: 4 attacks in 4 seconds deal 4*30=120 damage (25% less damage per hit), you gain 4 strikes of adrenaline. The damage is the same, the adrenaline gain is not. You basically convert energy into adrenaline, intelligent warriors only triger it when they know they do not miss, giving them an adrenaline boost. :A technical point. Consider an axe: An attack with it happens every 1.33 seconds or roughly 0.75 attacks per second. Under Flurry, the time between attacks should be reduced by 33%, changing the attacks per second to 0.75 / (2/3) or 1.125 attacks per second. Over four seconds, without Flurry there are three axe attacks, with Flurry 4.5 attacks, a 50% increase in number of attacks and adrenaline gain. Some testing with the actual skill supports this increase. ::Your calculations are wrong. Following the description, the attack rate increases by a third, this means: .75 * 1.33 = 1. What you calculated is an increase by 50% ( / (2/3) * 3/2 * 1.5). So, on a 4 second period, with a rate of 1, it is quite possible that you'd get a count of 4.5 attacks, accounting for lag on start and end of the 4 sec period.--theeth 22:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC) :The same testing indicates the average damage per attack is actually roughly 33% less, not 25% as in the skill's description, resulting in the average damage per second being the same as without Flurry. So the skill notes are still basically correct. rhess 19:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC) Personally Flurry has never left my skill bar since I last changed my build which was some time ago. It's not good on its own but its great when using it to charge other skills. Using a Zealous mod though is pretty essential when spamming it. Remember this skill is a stance so that you can gain the bonus's from "while in stance" equipment. --SK 01:52, 24 May 2006 (CDT) With my recent research with this skill, I discovered that spells like Conjure Lightning that add extra damage seem to not affected by the 25% reduction, just like how Illusionary Weaponry is unaffected. The increase damage could offset the reduction. --SavageX 12:12, 29 May 2006 (CDT) :Attack skills are also unaffected. An easy test is Balthazar's Island with Dragon Slash, Flurry, a candy cane weapon, and 0 ranks in swords. 4 damage to the dummy without Flurry, 3 with Flurry (~ 25% reduction, as expected). Dragon Slash, which adds 10 extra damage at rank 0, brings that up to 14 and 13, respectively. (Any skill works. I just picked one already sitting on my skill bar.) — 130.58 (talk) (04:09, 17 June 2006 (CDT)) Revert The original content is probably correct. At the very least, the edit was incorrect. To present my own data, in the past I had two characters using candy cane weapons whack each other without any armor on. One used flurry all the time, the other just whacked. I don't remember how much weapon mastery we used, but it was chosen to be the lowest value that did not result in rounding due to flurry's 25% damage decrease. It was probably around 3 mastery to deal 12 base damage (versus 0 AL). Criticals skewed things a little, but with low mastery they were uncommon; I think 1-3 usually over the course of a single trial. The guy using flurry always killed the one not using flurry, so the simple "4/3 * 3/4 = 1" theory is incorrect. The guy using flurry ended up with around 40 health left every time, so in the time he dealt 480 damage he took around 440 damage. The current writeup claims a 112% damage output when using flurry which is about what my experiment produced. --68.142.14.19 06:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT) Recent change Anon changed a load of figures, is this correct? — Skuld 08:32, 2 August 2006 (CDT) :No, see above. He made essentially the same change on July 29. --68.142.14.106 09:44, 2 August 2006 (CDT) ::Why is it assumed that 33% of time is taken away from 1.33 rather than 33% added to 0.75? ::Also, 0.75*1.33 DOES equal to 1.00 when sigfigs are considered. :::While I'm glad you moved your comments to the bottom, I don't think you read the section above this one where I explained my test method. I did not assume anything. --68.142.14.106 10:55, 2 August 2006 (CDT) Misconceptions The greatest misconception concerning flurry is the effect the skill has on hitting speed. For unknown reasons, some people prefer to believe that the 33% increase in the rate of attack manifests itself in a decrease of hitting period by 33% rather than increase in hitting frequency by 33%. Because there is no offical data on attack times, the community has collected its own data. The main way data was collected was in-game with the use of stopwatches. This has resulted in the publication of data in the form of periods (time per x) causing 1.33 s/h to be a more popular number than 0.75 h/s. Logically, why would a skill which states that it increases the rate of attack by 33%, actually it by ~50% as stated by the current edit? "it actually nets you an approximate 50% increase in the number of attacks." If one were to calculate what the effect on frequency would be if one were to decrease the period by 33%, one would find a similar number. * Please note that 0.75*1.33 DOES equal to 1.00 when significant figures are considered. * Also note that the period of attack would never equal to 1.33 considering that data types can hold up to 6 decimal points. It would probably be closer to 1.333333333, which makes it safe to use proper fractions (since there are numerous references to them in the skill descriptions anyways). *<"flawed" flurry effect>=<"flawed" affected period> (4/3)*(2/3)=8/9 -> resulting frequency = 9/8 = 1.125 -> 50% increase in hits per second. Through this demonstration, we can see that the current edit is changing the wrong attack values. Rates, especially ones which include time, are with respect to time. This means that flurry affects the attack frequency which is in units of hits per second rather than the period. :Have you tested this? As stated above, the numbers in the article are based on actual tests of this skill (and Frenzy which has the same wording with respect to increasing attack speed). If you have tested this, I'll gladly go retest it and present the data here, but if you haven't, I think you'll need to design a test that indicates you are correct before the community will agree with you. --12:10, 2 August 2006 (CDT) Forgot to log in. --Kryshnysh 12:12, 2 August 2006 (CDT) ::Ditto. Everything else being equal, I would've gone for strict interpretation of the official wording. However, if there has been tests conducted in support of the official wording being wrong, and there are no tests reported of the other side of the argument, I am more inclined to go with the test results. This would not the first time Anet has messed up the skill description. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 13:52, 2 August 2006 (CDT) :::someone is going to have to get a stopwatch and go kill suits of armor --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 15:43, 2 August 2006 (CDT) ::::Or just read about the test I did in the section above. --68.142.14.106 16:59, 2 August 2006 (CDT) :This is the same problem as Mantra of Recovery. The guild wars team seems to believe that you speed something up by x% by reducing the time it takes by x%, hence Mantra of Recovery's +50% actually a doubling of the recharge speed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if flurry and other IAS suffered from the same problem. 100%-33% = 66% (rounding) which is actually a 150% increase in attack speed. I wish aanet would change their figures to match reality... Echokin 20:52, 5 October 2006 (CDT) Attack Speed and Attack skill usage speed Almost all attack skills have no activation times, but we all know because of animation and the sort there's usually just about a 1/2 second delay before the hit actually connects (if it does). So foes Flurry or any other attack speed enhancement skill help with the delay? In other words, does Flurry actually decrease the delay between any physical (including wand/staff projectile) attack? >> Trace 22:59, 22 September 2006 (CDT) :Attack skills without activations start up at the same speed as a normal attack with a weapon will. IAS skills will speed them up. --Fyren 01:52, 23 September 2006 (CDT) ::Thanks, appreciate it. >> Trace 18:50, 23 September 2006 (CDT) Critical Hits Has anyone tested whether Flurry reduces the damage of a critical hit by 25% as well, or are criticals unaffected? Dfscott 15:11, 5 October 2006 (CDT) :Tested with Wild Blow. Critical hit damage is reduced by 25%. --Wil 15:21, 5 October 2006 (CDT) no setback? with a zealous sword/axe/daggers, use flurry, it lasts for 4 seconds costs 5 energy and theres gonna be at least 1 energy regen during that 4 seconds so that can make flurry have absolutely NO setbacks! with a sword u could use dragon slash/sun&moon slash combo and build adrenaline at an alarming rate. but theres more! use "for great justice!" and that adrenaline spike will be so fast that your arteries will explode from that adrenaline! man im brilliant. *checks green sword list for zealous swords*--Samurai Snack 13:23, 8 October 2006 (CDT) :Setbacks: filling skill slots and losing energy if you fail to hit for any reason. Not to say it's a bad idea ~ Attack Skills OK, here we go. say an attack skill lets me deal +20 damage. and say i dealt 40 damage to a target with that skill. that would mean 20 BASE damage while using that skill. does flurry effect the BASE damage? would it mean, in that situation, that my base damage would be 15 rather than 20 and overall damage would be 35 instead of 40? basically, does it effect base damage while using attack skills? :Read the notes. --Fyren 20:11, 4 February 2007 (CST) Usage I was testing this skill when I figured I'd combine it with shadowy burden on my assassin. Shadowy burden's -20 armor effect seem to not only sort of "cancel out" flurry's damage reducing effect, but it increased the damage I was doing by about 13 damage on average (as the base damage is a variable). I think I'd recommend this as a good combination as it would increase damage dealt by about 10-15 while attacking 33% faster, which is great for helping assassins like myself get through attack chains faster. If anyone is wondering how I tested it, I was testing it against the different suits of armors in the Isle of the Nameless. - 71.194.26.15 21:55, 3 June 2007 (CDT) :I recently have been toying with this on my imbagon as a substitute for Aggressive Refrain; I figured a 33% IAS is better than 25% and -20 al, and I don't have to keep spamming Anthem of Flame to keep it up. The constant 5 energy cost is taxing, but so far I've been able to make up for it by the energy gain from Anthem of Flame and SY, which I've been able to charge and use at least once every recharge of Flurry. However, I would be interested in more aggressive testing (by those who really know what they're doing) to determine if it's able to be used in a typical imbagon skill bar (Flurry, Focused Anger, Anthem of Flame, Spear of Fury, SY, There's Nothing To Fear, For Great Justice, They're On Fire). 06:34, March 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Know what's funny about Imbagons? Spirit Shackles doesn't hurt them if you take GFTE. They can easily take Flurry along and still cap out energy. --- -- ( ) (talk) 11:54, March 6, 2010 (UTC)